.jpg)
Think Above Par | Your Mental Caddy for Golf Mindset & Performance
Serious golfer? You know you’ve got the talent—but your brain keeps getting in the way. Think Above Par helps you master the mental game of golf, stop overthinking, and quit worrying about what others think on the course so you can play calm, confident, and consistent golf every round.
If you’re a serious golfer who knows you’re leaving shots out on the course, Think Above Par is your go-to podcast for mastering the mental game of golf. Hosted by Kathy Hart —a former Tour player, Top 50 Teacher, and Certified Mental Coach—each episode helps you strengthen your golf mindset, manage pressure, and play calm, confident, and consistent golf.
You’ll discover why you underperform under pressure, how to stop overthinking your swing, and what to do when you’re worried about what others think on the golf course. Whether you struggle with performance anxiety, perfectionism, or negative self-talk, Kathy shares proven mental-game tools to help you unlock your talent, enjoy the game again, and lower your golf scores.
Learn how to think above par—so you can play below par. Subscribe now to your weekly dose of golf mindset coaching and start transforming your golf brain today.
Think Above Par | Your Mental Caddy for Golf Mindset & Performance
The Real Value of Thinking Above Par For Your Golf and Life (an interview)
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This is an interview by Jesse Perryman from the Flaghuntersgolfpod. He invited me to his podcast and we talked about so much valuable content about what thinking above par is all about that I wanted to repost it here.
Jesse is an enthusiastic lover of the game of golf and asked powerful questions relative to the what it takes to manage your brain around the game.
It is an awesome summation of what this podcast is all about.
If you want any help with your personal mental management reach out to Kathy@KathyHartWood.com
Receive free weekly mental golf tips HERE
How many shots is your mental golf costing you?
Take the quiz here: quiz.mymentalcaddy.com
Continue your mental journey at Your Mental Caddy HERE
Mastering Your Golf Brain - A Guide to Self-Coaching
Mastering Your Golf Brain - The Workbook
Mental Golf Journal - A Range for Your Brain
Are all available at KathyHartWood.com/book
Email Kathy at Kathy@KathyHartWood.com
Website: KathyHartWood.com
Well, hello, my golf friends, and welcome back to Above Par. So nice to have you here and listening. So I have a little special podcast today. I was a guest on Flag Hunter's Golf Pod with Jesse Perryman. And we had a really great conversation. He asked lots of questions. He's very enthusiastic about the game, and he was enthusiastic about the content that I share. And I thought it would be an amazing podcast to share with you. And really reviewing a lot of the content that I share here and what I'm all about and the way that I think about the game and how you manage your mind. And I think this would be a great review and a reminder and synopsis of all the things that I value and try and share with you. So without further ado and without the music and the introduction, I'm going to lead right into my podcast with Jesse and the flag hunters golf pod. You can check that out on your favorite platform as well. And I hope you enjoy it.
SPEAKER_00Hello and welcome to a very special edition of Flag Hunters. Uh today we have Kathy Hartwood who is a spitting image of her brother, Dudley Hart on the PGA tour for those who follow the tour. And um, and Kathy is uh for for lack of a uh well, not for lack, but to shorten up her title, she's a life coach for golf. Yep. Golfers, which is really cool. But uh Kathy, please tell us exactly what you do, and then we'll get right into it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So well, I'm a former tour player and a top 50 teacher. I taught for years, I played for years, I taught for years, and now I help people manage their mind and their emotions around the game of golf so that they can play more to their potential. You know, I use the mental piece so that they can find the mental piece around the game of golf. So I help anybody from uh, you know, top players in the country to people who are higher handicappers because we all have one brain and we're all looking at everything that matters is about how we get to feel. So I help people feel better about their golf game.
SPEAKER_00Oh, very cool. So, do you think, Kathy, do you think that um that this really coincides with getting the potential out of our swing motion, out of our golf swing, out of the physical capabilities by doing the work? Do you think that you can access players' golf swings better?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I can help people play better without watching them hit one golf ball.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. Let's dive right into that. So how do you do that?
SPEAKER_01Well, because basically we get in our own way uh by how we manage our mind on the golf course. And most of us aren't taught actually how to deal with our emotions and our thoughts and how to think intentionally. And I always say that the ultimate goal for you to be able to play your best golf is for you to find the state, the emotional state that you perform your best in. I call it one of the three C's. So you want to be either calm, certain, or confident. And that's what 99% of people, or synonym of that, say is how they can make their best swings. So the reason that most people can make their best swings from one of those states is because our emotions show up in our body. And when those emotions show up in our body, we're relaxed enough that we can take, we can make the swings that we can make on the golf course out onto the range. And we have access to being able to think clearly and focus and uh be present. The the work is once you identify that state, is to go out on the golf course and make as many swings from that state as possible. And then the work, and the why it's uh challenging, is because people are trying to figure out why the heck they can't do that. Right? Why am I hitting a ball when I'm aggravated or pressured or nervous or anxious or stressed? Because those emotions also show up in our body and those prevent us from playing to our potential and taking the swing that we own out onto the golf course. I liken it to like taking a swing with like a weighted raincoat on, right? Our swing is underneath there, but on the top of it is all those emotions that are preventing us from playing to our potential.
SPEAKER_00That's well said. Now, uh, how do you deal with those emotions? How can you how can you play great golf in spite of those things that come up? Or do you release those emotions prior to playing? So tell us about that process.
SPEAKER_01Well, so from my my perspective, we don't stop emotions, right? I think that's what what a lot of times people do is they uh kind of freak out when they have an emotion or they don't know what to do with it. So, and then there's like people who are like, don't even talk to me about emotions, right? It's like, I'm like, it's it's a sport, it's not emotional. And that's not the case. We don't have that luxury. We are just the beings who are emotional. Being confident is an emotion, being motivated and driven is an emotion. So um, what happens is when you're on the golf course, is that we our emotions come from thought. So we create a, we have a thought, it creates little neurochemicals in our brain, goes to our body, shows up as vibrations in our body, and voila, and emotion. So a lot of times those emotions then drive some of the things that we do and we don't do. So that's why we'd like to have a preferred state. Most of us are at the effect of our brain and our thoughts, because our brain is naturally negative. So it has a lot of negative thoughts, and it's always looking for different ways that we're gonna get in trouble or get hurt because it has the primitive part of the brain, is just trying to protect you. So in old days, caveman days, our brain, which has not evolved much from that, the back part of our brain, it was designed to put your head out of the cave, look around for saber-toothed tigers, different ways that we were gonna starve to death or that we were gonna get kicked out of the tribe. And then it would also tell you to go back in the cave and stay safe. We don't have saber-toothed tigers now to worry about, and we don't have a food supply we have to worry so much about. But now our brain looks for emotional and social pain the same way. So when we go from the range, which is nice and calm, no tigers out there, right? Our brain doesn't perceive it as something that we're gonna get eaten alive. And we go to the first tea and we go, holy crap, right? There's out of bounds and there's water and there's a score out there, and that's gonna mean so much. And I'm risking having emotional pain, then we go into these fight or flight modes and our brain starts chattering a lot to us, and we we're not taught often how to manage those thoughts. And so we become at the effect of a lot of things on the golf course.
SPEAKER_00Boy, is that well said? And and Kathy, do you think that's the difference? Uh, quite frankly, between, well, it's kind of a general question, uh, winning and losing. So the guys and gals that are coming down the stretch on tour, do you think that they're able to talk to themselves a little bit better, a little bit clearer, uh, especially in moments of stress? Because we all have periods where whatever it is, two, three holes where we kind of go sideways with our ball striking. Um, you know, how how do you get back into balance when you have these thoughts flying all over your head and you're feeling these feelings that are manifesting in your body? Yeah, like you're freaking out a little bit. How do you get back to center?
SPEAKER_01Okay, so two questions. Well, so the one is you asked me about the tour players, and so let me ask, let me address that first. So, tour players, some are better at it the other than others. The ones who are really, you know, are are very um uh trained in it, I want to say, or have rehearsed it a lot, are very intentional about it, are are going to excel. And a lot of times, because tour players have played way more golf than the average amateur, they've gone through a lot of trial and error to figure out what's worked and what hasn't worked. So they're they're used, like I've been in this situation before, they have a lot of memory to tap into. And I know when I do X, Y, and Z, that doesn't work, right? So that they learn the skill of moving past it. Not always because golf is just not the same every two days, right? We're not, we can't um, you know, some people are gonna be in situations where like, oh my gosh, I've never led going into the last hole, and you know, there's a gallery behind the green, and that's the first time your brain has ever seen that. Unless you know how to manage all that, right? You're gonna probably have a lot of chatter in your brain to redirect it. Um, I think the biggest thing for the average amateur now, which I think was the second part of your question on when you're when you're underneath the stress, and it doesn't really matter if it's stress or pressure or anger or frustration or nerves or whatever it is, or fear, there's a lot of fear too. Um, the thing is that you're it goes through stages. I think, you know, I teach a little formula for how to do that. And so, which I find very useful, that's why I do what I do. It's what changed everything for me when I was um relative to when I was playing for a living. So the more that we go through that process, then the quicker we are on the golf course. And this is the thing that I think kind of puts everything into a little bit of a more, I think, understanding, relative understanding, is that we have one brain, right? So you have one brain, I have one brain. We don't have a golf brain. What we have is our what golf does is it rips the band-aid off of our ability to manage our mind. So we do a lot of the things off of the golf course, like our relationship with ourselves and people in our lives and all those things that are perfectionism, our fear of failure, our people pleasing, um, our ability to, you know, manage our anxiety or nerfs, all that stuff. We do it off of the golf course. The difference is that sometimes we have minutes or hours to deal with it. And it doesn't seem like such a big deal. But on the golf course, you have, I'm sorry, we have hours. I don't know if I said minutes, we have hours, right? On the golf course, you have minutes. So all of a sudden it's like now you're like brain, you feel like you set your hair on fire a lot of times on the golf course because you got hit, right? And so you haven't, you're like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm like, I don't know what to do with all these emotions, but you can sit home and be like, let's say, getting stuck in traffic. So you get stuck in traffic, which would be the equation or the um equal of being slow play, let's say, right? Or three groups on a T. So you get stuck in traffic and you're sitting in the car cussing out the traffic. You might be late for a meeting. You're like, this is ridiculous. Nobody knows how to freaking drive around here, right? And you can bitch all you want on that in your car, and you can do that for 10 minutes until you finally sit there and go, Well, this is doing me no good. Like, oh, there's not a dang thing I can do about traffic. Let me turn on a podcast and listen to you know, your podcast and like calm down. We don't have that luxury on the golf course, right? So it reveals your ability to get past those things. That same scenario is slow play or backed up T-Box on the golf course. And if you have that same dialogue, that that's going to affect your ability to focus and make your best swings. So that's what it's all connected. So the better you are at your ability to manage your mind off the golf course, then the better you are at managing it on the golf course.
SPEAKER_00Boy, that is such a great statement. You said getting on the golf course is like ripping the band-aid off of your emotions.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I mean, I've never seen more grown men on a golf course just absolutely lose their minds. No, I mean when they play. I mean, I just you you don't they're in and maybe a maybe a college football game.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, college football does it too, but um yeah, we're or or soccer in England.
SPEAKER_01That's I've seen some crazy things over there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean, just guys and and gals, they just you you lose, you lose your ever-loving mind. Yeah, and I I guess uh I mean, none of us really want to do that. None of us want to uh let our brains and our emotions run rampant, you know, especially those of us who are trying to play better golf and we're trying to get better. And I think this is uh a massive missing piece when it comes to today's mental approach. And um, you know, how do you just how do you get how do you do that? How do you uh how do you recognize what's going on? Let's just say you you know, on the scenario where you're backed up on a par three or you're waiting to knock it on in two on a par five, par five's back up in tournament play, par three's back up in tournament play, and you just made a bogey, or worse, a double, and you're pissed off about it, and you have these angry emotions that are coming up, and then you see the next tee, and you got three groups on there, and now you got more time to stew over it. How do you let that go?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the biggest thing to realize is that no situation, circumstance, or fact ever creates an emotion.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So your double bogey did not make you mad. A group on the T-box or a group on the fairway does not annoy you, right? You having a ball in a divot does not make you mad. Playing with Billy, Betty, or Bob, who you can't stand, doesn't annoy you. Playing in the rain doesn't make you nervous. Like none of that stuff, those are all facts. Those do not create our emotions. And when we think they create our emotions, that's where we give up our power. And now you're at the effect of it. Because if that was true, that would mean that anytime I made a bogey or a double bogey, I'm instantly mad. So I'm at the effect of a double bogey. Anytime I run into traffic, I'm instantly, or you know, backed up play, rather, I'm instantly annoyed. So now I'm at the effect of it. What's missing in between? This is part of my little formula that I talk about, I talked about a second ago, is there's a thought, right? So you have a situation, you have a circumstance, and then you have a thought, and your thoughts are optional. We have 60,000 or so of them a day. We get to think whatever the heck we want. Our brain will offer up a bunch to us, but we don't have to be the thinker of our thoughts. We can be, we can select what we want to think. We don't have to be the thinker of just the thoughts that come to our head more specifically, right? So we can make a double bogey and we can decide not a problem. Let's go. Just one shot at a time. All right, I got this, right? This is this is not a this is not a problem. You're gonna make double bogeys, let's go. Or you can sit there and go, I made a double bogey, I suck. I should quit this game. I'm an idiot. That was a stupid move. I shouldn't have done that. I'm gonna ruin my score, right? You can feel just me saying those two different things, how they feel so much different. And I choose to think a thought that will help me get to calm, certain, and confident because those other thoughts are gonna get me annoyed. And that annoyance is gonna show up in my body and it's gonna affect my ability to focus and swing, right? And so we get to decide. Yeah. And so part of it, so your first step in that is awareness. And awareness always, you know, it comes in three stages. The first stage is that we notice it after the fact. So you'll get in after a round and you're like, oh, and that was stupid. I can't believe I did that. And I like totally was thinking the wrong thing. And we notice it after the round. We're sitting in the 19th poll or driving home, and we and we notice all the different things after the fact. Sometimes let me preface it by saying, even before that, is you don't even know what you're looking for, right? So you got to know what you're looking for, right? And then we start noticing them after the fact, the thoughts and the emotions and the different situations, like I talked about with my uh my my formula. So we notice them after. Then we start noticing them while they're happening. Like you might be over the ball going, oh wow, I'm hearing my brain go down a total rabbit hole. This is not gonna be productive. And you notice it happening at the moment. And then the final stage is kind of where you get to this is the part of my story when I'm out playing golf where I have a tendency to beat the crap out of myself, right? This is about to happen and you get ahead of it, right? Which is the final, final stage of awareness. Now, I'm gonna say too, we ebb and flow through those because there's always new situations that come up that you're gonna notice after the fact. You're like going, oh yeah, that was like a totally new thing. I noticed that I didn't do that. But we when we learn from them, we put them into our little memory bank and then you for the next time and you become a more powerful mental person for each subsequent, subsequent round.
SPEAKER_00That is words of gold, right there, Calvin. I mean, goodness gracious. I mean, I'm gonna, I'm sure I'm speaking for millions of golfers out there, and I'm speaking for the few that play tournament golf and how the Gremlins they just talk. Yeah, and they talk and they talk. And I and I think you know, it's a it's a great comparison to as far as amateur play versus professional play, is they have gotten to put the iron in the fire more than we have. So they've they've figured out how to deal with it for the most part. And if they haven't, you know, they're they're off the tour. And um do you think that uh these this skill set and this awareness might be the elephant that separates people that sustain out on the PGA tour or LPGA tour versus uh guys and girls that that fade off the tour? Do you think that this is a big reason why?
SPEAKER_01Oh, well, I think I don't think I know. I mean, your ability to manage your mind is going to is going to totally dictate how you feel at any given moment. So whether you enjoy it is one thing, and whether you succeed is the other part of it. So that's gonna give you legs. The reasons why you don't succeed or that you're miserable is also managing your mind. So it's related to both reasons. I think most people will we we quit or we stop anything in life because of how we're feeling, so that we get to feel a different way. So if you decide that you want to quit golf, it's because you don't like how you feel. And I'm just suggesting that how you feel is not based on the score or a shot that you hit, how you feel is based on what you're making it mean about you, probably. Um, and then you want relief from that.
SPEAKER_00Wow. My friend George Willett, who uh who worked for TailorMade for 30 plus years in the uh in the in the tour department, well, he always used to say to take responsibility for your game. You take responsibility for how your clubs are set up, you take responsibility for the state of your physical well-being. And I and I think that with all that has been written about the golf swing, I mean, goodness gracious. I mean, have you ever had a sporting move more analyzed in the history of sports than the golf swing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, to a fault, actually.
SPEAKER_00It's really it's just golfing. I think it's I think it's produced a generation of perfectionists. Absolutely. And and especially today with the advent of technology. Yeah. But yet what you're talking about, Kathy, is uh it's been explored, but I believe in my heart of hearts that this needs as much exploration as the golf swing, if not more. Because how can how else can you explain uh the guy or the girl on the range who, you know, pardon my French might have a shitty golf swing, but they go out and produce low scores, they go out and play well, they go out and enjoy themselves, they got no business. But if you're looking at their swing motion, going the well, that that guy, that dude has he doesn't have the best swing in the world, but yet he goes out and kicks everybody's ass. Yeah, this has got to be the the the goose that laid the golden egg, and it needs to be explored with as much enthusiasm and technological advantage as swing motion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't disagree with you for sure. I mean, I remember I played in college, I played for Furman University. We were playing, I was playing a girl at the University of Georgia. Uh, we got paired together. And you know, when you played college golf, you kind of sussed the players out, and it's a team event, which is a totally different atmosphere when you're playing an individual sport, but you kind of felt like that was your person to kind of beat for the day. And she couldn't hit it ankle high in the air. I was like, good God. Like my brain was like, How did she get a scholarship? Like, how does she stop it on the green? And I kept going through all these scenarios in my head. I was so preoccupied with her and her round. I'm like, like, how does she even stop a you know, a shot? She's hitting it. I was hitting it way past her. So um, you know, I played my round, but also I was just like so, and she was so happy. Like, I was like, how is she even happy? Like that she can't hit it butt ankle high. And she kicked my butt. You know, I mean, she just kicked my butt. I was like, what the heck just happened? That was my first experience with that. My other experience that I want to share with you about kind of what you're saying is you know you know you mentioned my brother, he played on tour, and and last summer, last my summers are running together with COVID, but I think it was last summer, I was helping his son who plays for University of Florida, and he made the comment to me. So when I when I played for a living, I always struggled with my putting, right? And this was basically why I got into what I was doing. I had horrible thoughts about my putting. And I just thought it was a fact that I was always going to struggle with my putting. It's gonna be the weakest, weakest part of my game. Those are things that I told myself over and over again. And so when I go and play, the minute I hit a wonky putt, I'm like, ah, here we go again. And then I'd have a day. Like I can hit 15 greens and shoot 75 with the best of them. And so I um I then like I said, what I did to why I do what I do is I literally, you know, I focused on this stuff in a different area of my life, what I what I teach. And I was like, oh my gosh, I wonder if that is actually true about my putting. And I decided to just use that as an experiment. And my putting turned around in in about seven days by me changing my thoughts about my putting on a golf course, and it shifted everything for me. I had people sitting there going, I've never seen you putt so well. I didn't practice, I didn't do anything. I just changed the way I was thinking. But going back to my brother, he said, he goes, I don't get these junior golfers or college players. He was the number one junior in the country at his time. And he said, When I was a junior, I just thought I was the best kid in the tournament. I'm like, that's so interesting. Like, same parents. I always thought I'd struggle with my putting. And we were both right.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. So he would go out and play in a tournament and he would win. He goes, Of course I did. And then I go out and hit 15 greens and shoot 75 and say, Of course I did. Because our brain doesn't know whether the thought that we choose to think over and over again, which I just repeated that thought enough times that it became a very strong belief. And he believed that thought enough times that it became a very strong belief. And we both started seeing the results from those beliefs. And our brain doesn't know if our thought serves us or doesn't serve us. It only knows what we we repeat the most. So, you know, both of those thoughts were not intentional. They were just kind of like we just, I'm like, with the same family, same household. Right. Same dad who's a golf pro, like, how'd he get that one? And I got this one. It was just what we decided to think and believe. And we we really were at the effect of that, uh, of those thoughts.
SPEAKER_00That's so powerful, Kathy. So when when somebody reaches out to you to work with you, um, let's let's talk about just sort of the first steps. Do do you just help them become aware? Because it seems to me that most people, they're not even aware.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They're not even they they're they're they don't have a clue. They're just running off whatever their brain's telling them. So is that kind of the first step? You make people become aware of of what's going on inside of their.
SPEAKER_01Yes, basically, yeah. You that's basically it. So I like I teach them some tools, like I said, the formula, and then we start practicing it and becoming more aware of our thoughts. You know, I usually we touch on something that is a like a pain point, like, you know, like for me, it would have been my putting, right? Or it might be for somebody else. It's um, you know, just depends on I work with people on driver yips and and uh chipping yips, and so that might be a pain point for them, or it might be all the pressure that they're feeling and they're not finishing very well in tournaments. So, or they're just miserable. Like I just we just focus on why you're why you're miserable and just really unhappy with the game or anger. I have some clients that I work with that they just have like uh immense anger on the golf course that they can't seem to get past. So we first work on that and start noticing and I make them aware. They don't need to be on a golf course either, by the way. They by you just like I said about using the um the traffic as an example, right? We just start being more aware of our thoughts. Most of us were not taught to do this. And some of us are very cerebral, we can hear our thoughts and pay attention to them. And some of us notice our feelings and our body, or and a lot of us are disconnected. I had a client who's like, I don't want to think about what I'm thinking. I was like, oh my gosh, like she was in college. I was like, What do you mean you don't want to think about what you're thinking? If you don't, you're at the effect of that primitive caveman brain, and that you're not gonna like where that caveman primitive brain drives the bus too. You don't you want to be in charge of the bus with your prefrontal cortex? So that was so interesting. I um she didn't want to hear her thoughts, but but anyway, so yeah, we start being aware. So everybody's a little bit different in that sense, and then I liken it to like a rubber band ball sometimes or even a Django block. It's like you just start pulling apart a piece, like one at a time. And it doesn't mean you have to mend all of them. Sometimes all it is is just one thought can shift everything. One thought shift everything for me. I have a client on my podcast about his driver yips, and that was one thought. It started with his putting, and he was like, Oh, I can use this with my driving. And so once we have the proof on how we can manage our mind and seeing the evidence of it, all it takes is one thought for everything to start shifting. So I do that, and then I teach people how to manage their emotions, what to do with their emotions. Then we just start up-leveling it and deciding to think intentionally to get the results that we want. Um, you know, there's those tools in there to learn. So everybody's a little bit different, but for the most part, it's it's a lot of golf thought management, but also life thought management and emotional management.
SPEAKER_00Sure. You know, I've always thought that uh whoever's working on their game, it's just gonna make them a better person.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because you have to analyze a lot and you have to do some good things. To play good golf, you have to do some good things. Yeah, you have to get rest, you have to, you know, work on mobility or go to the gym, uh, something like that if you want to play well, if you want to play tournament, tournament. That's it.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna just I'm gonna argue with you on that one. I don't, I don't know that I agree with you from the standpoint that I think a lot of people don't you don't know what you don't know. So like you can say that like they might need to work on their rest or they might need to work on um uh I forgot what the other thing you said, like two other things, um, they're like fitness or something like that. But a lot of times people will have thoughts in their head that what's most important is that I hit as many balls as possible. And so I will do that at my own expense. So it's not always finding what you're talking about, is a nice balance where people are very aware that it doesn't serve me if I don't get rest to go out there and perform well. I also have plenty of people who are very successful, but they're doing it the hard way. It's not an easy way. You can you can be successful from a from a negative state, but it's usually uh with a lot of effort, right? It's kind of like think about those times where we had like a deadline, whether it was in school or at work, right? It's like we had stress and pressure, we got it done, but we made it so effortful. There's a lot of successful people who make it effortful, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I would agree with you there. Um, I I just I still think it's fascinating though, Kathy, that that what you're doing hasn't been it just hasn't been explored quite yet. But thankfully you're out there and you're doing it and kind of leading the way. So that certainly makes me feel good. And um now my next question is so if somebody's experiencing anger, okay, on the golf course and they and they could feel in their body, they're charged up. They're maybe their heart's pounding, maybe your your your internal tele, uh your internal um temperature elevates a little bit, you're pissed off. How do you deal with that in the moment?
SPEAKER_01Um, well, of course, it well, it comes down to there's a couple different ways that you have anger. I'm gonna say for the most part, sorry, my brain, I'm like thinking. So for the most part, it starts as annoyance and then it builds to frustration and then it builds to anger. So we may have missed a window of opportunity to address it when it was just annoyance, right? And so because we don't address it, it blows up and builds up into it's anger, right? So that's that's one thing. And usually our anger is coming from two different reasons. One is that if we have uh expectations that might be exceeding reality. We have to manage our expectations, or we get angry when there's like an injustice served, or we feel like we've been wronged in some way. So those are two ways. So let's say you got a bad bounce, right? And it's like you hit a great shot, it got a bad bounce, it kicks dead left, goes in the water, right? And you get instantly ticked off. That's because you feel like that wasn't fair, there was an injustice served, and that produces anger. The other anger usually is when we start saying things like, I should have hit that better, I, you know, I should be hitting this closer, I should be making more pars, I shouldn't be doing this a lot of shoulds going in there. That's managing expectations. So the anger is um, like I said, is an is an emotion and learning to release your emotion is a skill, right? And so um I think it was Justin Thomas or Jordan's case note, I don't I mess this up all the time, said about Tiger Woods, I uh that he allows himself 30 to 60 seconds to process an emotion so before he gets back to calm, certain, and confident. So going back to where I kind of started in the beginning, it's not about not feeling an emotion, it's about sitting there and acknowledging I'm mad and then processing it and getting back to calm. That's that's the ultimate work. And when we're not taught how to do that, or we have no idea how to do it, or we keep repeating the thought in our head that produces the anger, that's where we struggle.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Yeah, I had a little episode the other day that I'm gonna embarrassingly share.
unknownThat's okay.
SPEAKER_01You're human. I'm sure I share all of my embarrassing stories in my podcast too.
SPEAKER_00Um I'm I'm playing at my club the other day and it's a par five. And uh I turned, I don't know, I was four under. Okay. So I was having, I was feeling it. I was having a day. I was four under, and uh the tenth hole is is a short par five that we can just light up. So I just striped this driver right down the middle. I've got 200 yards of the hole, the hole's I don't know, five, ten or something like that. And I hit a pretty good drive, and it's right in the middle of a divot. I mean, and the worst divot, I can't get anything on this thing except a wedge. I mean, it's awful. And I had a little bit of a meltdown. And my thoughts were I'm finally playing well. I've been working my tail off on my golf swing with some really good instruction, and I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, how unfair. This is bullshit, this sucks. And I and it got to me. I let it get to me embarrassingly. I mean, well, I'm not so embarrassed that where I can't share it, but I think in retrospect, I could have just said, well, it's a bad break, whatever. I can still wedge it out, I can still make birdie, or if I make parts, fine. It's not the end of the world. You know, instead of getting control of it at the beginning, as you said, my thoughts kept increasing as I was assessing the lie and getting more pissed off. And I allowed myself to get distracted. So, of course, you know, the 19th hole, as you said, or I'm driving home and I think about that scenario. What would have happened if I would have looked at that differently? Or as a challenge? Oh, well, I mean, it's in the well, I can still make screw it. I'm still gonna make birdie from a debit. I don't care. Yeah. Because I'm sure that's what a lot of people have done in the past. And I just let my thoughts and emotions get the better of myself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So often when we start going, I like to think of um thoughts as magnets to each other. So when we start, we get snowballing, right? So you have a negative thought, and then you give it, you let it sit there for a little bit, another negative thought connects to it, another one connects to it. Now you got this little momentum, this little truck going downhill and it's gaining speed. And the minute we start going down that road where the momentum is going in a negative direction, just think about trying to stop a truck, a big truck going downhill to stop and get it going back up the hill, right? To do that, we have to first stop momentum.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Then we have to spend a lot of energy to turn it around. And that's why it becomes a little bit challenging when we get our brain starts going down a negative uh rabbit hole for us to turn it around on a dime. It's just there's so much energy and momentum going in the wrong direction.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah. And so at that moment, yeah, you started just saying, like that, you know, you probably had a big story in there about people should fill their divots or like who the hell hit this shot.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And like, this is so unlucky. I'm gonna, you know, a little bit of a victim in there too. Like, why did this happen to me?
SPEAKER_00100%.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so what happens too is then we make stupid uh choices. And I say stupid in quotation marks, is and part of that's by design um with our brain is that we get into this. Anytime you get into a fight or flight mode where you feel in like your um, you know, you a lot of times it's pressure or your energy is getting up. We're designed to fight the tiger, right? So we want to tense up and we want to either fight, make a fist to wait, we're gonna tense up or we're gonna run. But also our brain just kind of closes the door. This is my little visual, like someone's a neuroscientist, okay. That's not exact at all how it works, but this is the way I picture it. Like a little door shuts to the front part of our brain where we can think clearly. And the reason that we don't want to think clearly is we don't want to negotiate with the darn tiger. We want to get the heck out of there. So when people are on the golf course and they feel like they're making, they're not focusing, they're not very present, they're not making very good decisions. Um, that's because you we don't have access to the front part of our brain. We're usually in a heightened state, in a fight or flight mode. And it's by design, right? And you're like, Well, I don't know what's wrong with me. Like some days I can focus really well, some days I can't focus very well. When I get mad, I just make stupid decisions. I took a big R, you know, big swing at that ball in the divot, and then I made an eight. Like this is where those eights come up. And that's because you want to have some tools to be able to get to the front part of your brain again so you can start thinking clearly.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Yeah. Oh, I mean, this this should be taught in elementary schools.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, for sure. It really should be kids, they should teach kids how to manage their minds and take emotional responsibility, which is another thing, is that knowing that emotional maturity is knowing that I'm always responsible for how I feel. We don't blame our feelings on other things outside of us. It's always our thoughts that do that. But we end up teaching kids that things outside of them are what make them feel that way. You know, like Billy said mean words, and that's what made me sad, right? Or things that happen in the world are what causing me to be so upset. That's never the case. It's always our thoughts. And that's about taking learning to take a and a lot of adults don't know how to do this for sure. And we can sometimes go in and out of emotional maturity. Sometimes we just want, like, I know that I'm like pissed off about this thing, and I know it's my thoughts, but I just want to be pissed off, right? That's like totally fine too. But yeah, a lot of adults don't even know how to manage, you know, take emotional maturity and responsibility for how they feel.
SPEAKER_00Let me ask you a question, Kathy. Um, I I had a thought come up on the golf course the other day. And uh after missing a short putt, I immediately in my mind I got pissed off. I didn't I didn't outwardly show it. But the the most amazing transformational process happened as I was walking from the green to my golf cart to put my putter in my bag, and I'm feeling this anger and I'm feeling this frustration. I noticed myself, what why am I holding on to it? What's the payoff here? What what am I what what's what is this response? How is it benefiting me? And that just those thoughts came out of nowhere. And I I think that was kind of a result of of my meditation practice, and um and and I was able to go to the next T perfectly clear. I was able to surrender and let go of the bullshit that was going on inside of my head for missing a short putt. So what? I missed a short putt. The best putters in the world miss short putts all the time. Why am I any different?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, and I thought that was a real uh uh uh uh kind of a paradigm shift for me because I haven't been able to stop thinking about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that you were able to let a thought go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what what was my payoff for being poopy and pouty and mad because I missed a short putt? Well, what how is that benefiting me? What's my payoff, my own internal payoff? So I get to feel sorry for myself. Yeah, and I thought that doesn't benefit me.
SPEAKER_01Well, I so I a couple things on that. One, I use the term which yours is is very good, like payoff, but I use the term, does it serve me or is it useful? Right. So often we can have we can have thoughts that are true, right? So, for instance, going back to my putting, you know, I was like putting's always gonna be the weakest part of my game, or putting's the weakest part of my game. So technically my brain was telling me, but it's true because I could do all my stats and I can see that it's at the bottom, right? Right, but it's just not useful for me to remind myself. Sure. Right. And so same thing, like so that with putting, like or noticing that I'm beating the crap out of myself. Is this useful and does it serve me? Um, no, like why the heck am I doing it? Okay, so the why the heck are we doing it? I coach plenty, plenty, plenty of people who think they deserve it, right? So there's like this I deserve to beat myself up. I'm not worthy enough to be kind to myself. I have I have a lot of clients who have a hard time being nice to themselves out there, right? Which I did too for a long time. I'm like, no, I just I can work harder, I can do better, I know I can do more. And I really didn't realize that I was perpetuating a cycle of not non-success, right? Because I wasn't finding any grace and compassion for myself while I was just being a human, trying to do all the human things. I was saying I could be better and I could do more and I should know better. And by me being kind to myself, I was giving myself a pass, which is not the case, right? I was doing so for my own benefit. I had to start doing it for my own benefit. That's which boils down to one thing that I just wanted to add, which goes down most of the time when I coach people, if they if they get um open enough to it, sometimes people are like I mentioned before, just don't want to look at certain things. It boils down to um, well, I talk about golf being just a series of relationships, and relationships are just thoughts we have in our head about different things. So you have a relationship with your own golf game, right? You might love your driver, but you hate your putter. I had someone who's like, Oh, and I love my eight-iron, I love my six iron, I hate my seven iron. I'm like, okay, that makes no sense because, like, right, but it's a thought and they would always hit their seven-iron bed. So we have relationships with our clubs. We could have a relationship with the game of golf and what it means, like how important it is to us, and how um playing golf or playing at the club or playing in tournaments might mean something about your status and things like that. Then we can have relationships with the golf course, it's an important relationship to have. So your, I just think of uh Matsuyama's caddy at the masters, how he bowed to the golf course. We don't need to beat the golf course up. Your ball in a divot, you don't have to sit there and go, this freaking golf course, it's like in bad shape because that's just doesn't serve you, right? It's like talking and come. We never want to complain about things that we can't control or um argue with reality, right? The reality is my ball's in a divot. Now, what do I want to think about it? Right. And so we can have relationships with people in our lives relative to the game of golf. You might have relationships with your spouse going out and playing that can help or hurt your game. Some people are like, go play, some are not so much go play. You can have relationships with people at the golf course, people in your group and people, people. I have a lot of people who people please, right? And that's something that can affect your golf um game. But the ultimate one is your relationship with yourself. And that is your self-worth and your identity and your enoughness, the words that you say about yourself. That's going to directly impact your confidence and how much pressure you put on yourself to perform. So, in other words, I coach a lot of people if they shoot 78, they versus 68, let's say they're a scratch golfer, 78, they get to feel at the end of the round like they're a piece of crap and they're not good enough and they should quit and it's embarrassing and other people think they stink, right? Or if they shoot 68, they get to feel good about themselves and proud about themselves and that they're enough and that you know they're doing all the right things. And like I said earlier, a situation or a fact never never produces an emotion. So a score, a number, never produces an emotion. But if you go out playing golf and expecting your golf game to show up so that you get to full feel a certain way, you're putting too much pressure on your golf game and it's not going to work.
SPEAKER_00Boy, that is powerful. That is so powerful, Kathy. Wow. So with that incredible statement, what's the antithesis? Let's, I mean, how how can um how can somebody shift? I mean, that's why you're here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So, like I said, so shifting is again, it everybody's a little bit different, but if you you do want to go through a process of just being really aware of what I would start with noticing your most dominant emotion on the golf course. Maybe three. You pick three. So, like if your most dominant, and let's just say it's a negative emotion. So your most dominant negative emotion on the golf course. So let's say if you have anger, is one and you might have nerves, might be another one, or anxiety or or pressure or stress, right? So I would pick out of those three, then pick one. Start with one and then start noticing. Also, write down your top 10 thoughts that you have a tendency to say to yourself if you can notice them. This little exercise in itself is a lot for some people. Like they're like, I've never even looked at my thoughts. I've never looked at my emotions. You know, I have a lot of guys who are like, I don't have emotions. I'm like, yes, you do, right? So it's like you're a human. And so it's not, I'm not talking about being emotional, but there are so many emotions in in golf. And so it's so funny that how we judge emotions, right? So um, but anyway, that's where I would start because for some people, like I mentioned before, they're very into their thoughts, they're very into their emotions. This can be so revealing on on when you if you feel any resistance in this exercise, which is pretty, you know, um not complicated, right? It's not like taxing, but if you feel resistance, like there's like a little a nice sign for you that there's an area for work and something for you to explore. So then I would, after you do that, then I would start connecting up, like when I think these thoughts that I wrote down on a golf course, how do I feel? So we can sit there and just have um our, let's just say, for instance, that's a common one, like I need to play well today, right? Like I hear myself say that, like I get on the first T and I'm like, I need to play the, let's say I need to get off to a good start, right? That is something that is not a fact, right? It's it's and when we say it, it and you have to, this is the way we know how a thought feels is you gotta sit there for a second and just say it and just notice how it feels. So if I said I need to get off to a good start, I instantly feel pressure, right? So you're gonna stand that first T and feel like you got to get the ball in play. You're gonna steer your drive down there, or you're gonna put a little bit, you're gonna notice even more any trouble that's out there. So now you're playing from pressure. That's not useful, right? That's not one of the three C's. So we want to just start noticing those thoughts and you kind of go through the list and just write to the side, maybe what emotion you feel when you think those negative thoughts, let's say for the most part, right? Positive thoughts, people are usually don't have as much resistance to. And then maybe see if one of those emotions is on your emotional list. So if you find a connection, like your emotional list, let's say was anger and you found a thought in there that I never, you know, I never get any good breaks. And you might notice that's always my thought. I always get bad breaks, yeah, and that creates anger, right? That's some work in there on marinating that thought. So I like to first, we want to note awareness. We want to notice that that that thought, okay, when I think that thought, that's what's causing my angeriness. Or if that's a word. Uh, and then when you go on the golf course, just start paying attention to when it shows up, right? And then we want to start after that. Once you're, we don't want to rush through this process because your brain holds on to thoughts. Like I picture it like roots, like, and sometimes some thoughts are really dug in concrete, other thoughts are really easy to pluck out, right? So sometimes if you've been thinking of a long time, like my thought about my putting, it's like stuck in there like concrete. So it was going to take me a little bit of time to loosen up the roots before I could pluck the thought out. So we don't want to necessarily rush through it, but then we just want to start shifting thoughts to something that's more useful, something that would serve us more. So So what was the thought that I had? It's like I never get good breaks or something like that. So I never get good breaks. We might want to shift it to sometimes I get good breaks. Right. And so when I go out thinking sometimes I get good breaks, what's going to happen is your brain is going to start looking for all the evidence of the good breaks you get. Instead of your brain always looking for evidence of it being a bad break, and we miss all the good breaks. And so that plus that thought feels better, then I never get a good break. So that's like a really simple one. But anytime you hear like the thought, I need to or I have to, I need to hit this putt, I need to hit this green, I need to make a birdie here, I have to hit this ball in the fair way, pressure. So those are things to look for. Shoulds, anytime you hear shoulds in your vocabulary in your head, usually, especially if it doesn't feel very good, there's shame in there. We're usually judging ourselves and there's shame. So those are kind of some easy ones to listen for. And then, but I'm always encouraging people to write them down on a piece of paper because we can't read the label from inside a bottle. So you got to get your thoughts out of your head and look at them on a piece of paper. And it really is very um, I want to kind of say cathartic. I mean, it's like, oh, okay, now that it's out of my head, I feel like there's more space up there. And I decide what I want to put back up in it, so to speak.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's the first step to mastery is becoming aware. Yes. I mean, that's that's with with anything and everything. Yeah, I mean, it seems to me simplistically, Kathy, that the best putters, they are uh a lot of them think that they're really good. They they think that hey, I'm I'm a really good putter.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And and things, and if that's the dominant thought, then the the BS that happens that are out that's outside of our control, it just doesn't really, you know, if it might ear annoy you for a quick second, but it then it's gone quickly. Um, and that's one of the things I've noticed with really good putters. They just don't, it just kind of rolls off their back and they just continue thinking and believing that they're pretty darn good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um, but I I think it had to start from somewhere. I think Bobby Jones said that uh his his road to becoming a better player was realizing how angry he used to get because he was a notorious bad temper kid playing junior golf back then, throwing his clubs and cursing and just anything that that you would think that would be the opposite of the statesman that he became. But I'm sure he was uh aware of he became aware, yeah. And uh Roger Federer said the same thing in his transformation in a TED talk, which I would encourage anybody to look that up because this is yeah, I will it it's running exactly with what you're saying, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think some of it has to do with the you have your you have like for me, I had my epiphany on this, but I also like I said, you know, so all everything I did, all the pieces came together like in a moment for me that I was able to verbalize all of this. Like if you had, you know, caught me when I was playing for a living, I'd be like, what the heck am I talking about? But I had always constantly been a student of this, and then I had the missing puzzle piece, which was for me this little formula that I that I kind of share. Um, and um it all made sense. It's like, you know, how everything starts to line up for you. But the thing is too, is like it's one thing to notice it and it's another thing to know how to change it and shift it. You know, my brother also had a temper and he has said to me, if he knew how to manage his emotions, like his his anger, he would have made way more money.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_01But we just don't, we're just not taught how to do it, right? There's like there, we're like going, that's why people are always asking questions similar to what you're asking, like, what do you do? And I would have told you when I was playing for a living, I didn't know what the heck to do. I had this horrible pressure I put on myself and fear of disappointment and failure. And I didn't know how to mend it. I went to lots of sports psychologists, like I mentioned to you, and none of it really clicked for me. I was like, that okay, you gave me a tool to help me with my putting, but it doesn't help for the for the lashing I give myself when I'm done with a round.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That's one thing that I've noticed uh with golfers is is by and large, we are very hard on ourselves. Yes, very hard on ourselves. And and I don't think that's that's uh that's the way to be. I remember I played behind my first California state amateur. I played behind Mickelson. This is years ago, goodness gracious. But um kind of dating myself, and he shot 78. And he's he was at the time the easily the number one amateur in the world. He was no, he was one of the best players in the world when he was still an amateur. He shot 78, and I noticed how he was after the round, he was he was unaffected, and it didn't even phase him. It's like whatever, I shot 78. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person or I suck or anything like that. He and I I think he went on and shot 68 the next round and and made match play.
SPEAKER_01Right, which goes back to my point. The better you can get at detaching your score. I used to uh uh spend a lot of time with the Harman family, Craig Harman, particularly. And I saw Billy Harman a lot of times, and he always used to say, good shot, good person, bad shot, bad person, good round, good person, bad round, bad person. I kind of took it to the um either way. I get if people say he said one way or the other way, I heard both of them all the time, right? So um, and uh I always used to go, what is he talking about? I like I would think about it, and I'm like, Yeah, I get it, but I think it's true, right? So, like, because I thought that my identity was based on my score, right? And so I didn't know how to separate it. He was trying to give me a hint and I'm like going, I agree with you, right? He wasn't, I didn't, you know, get to he was being kind of you know sarcastic or facetious in that comment, right? It's like learning to detach ourselves from our score. Phil Mickelson had no problem. 78, it's like it's part of the game, it's part of the problem. You're gonna shoot some 78s, but I know for my own benefit, for me to come out and shoot 68 tomorrow, I can't beat myself up because if I beat myself up, right, I'm not we're gonna shoot another 78.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And and here, and the funny thing is, is that this is the genesis behind it all because I see guys on the range after playing bad and they're immediately trying to identify something in their golf swing when you know, maybe one out of 10 times it's the case, and maybe they're going through a swing change and and that pattern hasn't been quite habituated yet. But most of the time it's exactly what we're talking about. This is the elephant in the room.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So they're searching for something outside of themselves in their golf shots to create a level of certainty, which is one of the three C's, so that I can go out tomorrow and I can have some certainty about my game, right? And so when we do that, now if you are working on something, there is a moment to work on your swing. I'm not saying any of that, right? But we want to be very, you want to be more scientific about it versus anytime it's driven from an emotion, um, then you know that you have work you can do outside of the range. If it's driven from science, go to the range and see if you can work on your swing. But you know, that we're looking often, this is the way when people warm up um or in practice rounds uh or before around when you when you practice or you warm up, looking for evidence so that you get to feel certain you're going about it the wrong way and you're doing so at your own uh peril. Because you go through a uh practice round or you go through the uh warming up before, it's just utilitarian. You're just doing there to loosen up your muscles. But what happens is a lot of times people go out there and say, I need to hit that one shot, like out of 30, I hit the one that helps me feel certain so that I can go out there and know that I'm gonna have a good day. But how many times have we gone out and had a crappy practice or warm-up session and gone and played great, and vice versa. Yeah. So when we can take that off of like needing to see something, because the more you stand on the range needing, I need to see this a draw. I need to see something on the club face so that I get to think and feel a certain way. We put more pressure on our golf game. And the more pressure you put on your swing, the less likely you're gonna see it.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it becomes like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
SPEAKER_00So um, Kathy, this this has been uh a very, very powerful conversation. Um, how do people get a hold of you?
SPEAKER_01Um, so Kathy at KathyHartwood.com or at KathyHartwood.com, or I'm basically it's um same for my Instagram or my TikTok. I think it's all Kathy Heartwood. So you can find me there. Okay.
SPEAKER_00And my podcast is above par, which is a very great podcast, by the way. Um you're I'm I'm ODing on your podcast, by the way. Here I am a podcaster, and I'm ODing on your podcast.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00The information there is is is simple and you explain it incredibly well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think that uh this is the next exploration in playing better golf. It has to be.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh to go in there deeply and to figure it out, it's the same process that we've figured the swing motion out with. Yes, objective, critical thinking, and trying to continue to ask the question why.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And uh and that led me to you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I do I do want to be clear. I'm like, I I coach people who are some of the top that play in a lot of USGA events right now, like top amateurs in the country, to all the way to like 36 or 40 handicaps, um, which is just interesting because they're just not happy, right? So it's all about how we want to feel. Everything we do or we don't do is about how we want to feel. And really, my motivation isn't so much as driven by people playing better golf. I think playing better golf is a side, is a consequence, is a is a um uh what's the word I'm looking for?
SPEAKER_00Is a result of.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and at the effect of like you learning how to manage your brain. I really want to get people to help them manage their minds because what happens is every person I coach, every area of their life up levels because you have one brain. Right. So I so that they I have plenty of people who say, I'm not playing tremendously better, but man, I'm happier. Right. And so to me, that's a win because then the golf game will come, right? And it and it'll it'll come and not always be there. There'll be times when I'm not playing well and I'm still can be happy. And that's what I want people to have. I don't want you just to be happy when you play well. I don't want the pursuit to be to play well to be happy. I want you to learn how to manage your mind so that you can shoot whatever, because golf is weird, right? We all know golf's a weird game, right? We can like do all the right things and have a whole high score. We can do all the wrong things and have a low score. But can you can you appreciate the process along the way and know and have the certainty and confidence that you can manage your mind around anything? That's what I love teaching people.
SPEAKER_00I think we're gonna mic drop it right there.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Wow. So uh holy smokes. But um, you know, I'm gonna encourage people to listen to this over and over again because I'm pretty well versed in this for the most part. Um, for the most part. And uh I I think that you're gonna people are gonna have to listen to this over and over again because uh you've explained it uh exquisitely. And some of the things that you've said, Kathy, are so simple that it can just fly right over somebody's head.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh that that way, just as in anything that's that's worth studying and worth trying to comprehend, you just got to listen to it over and over again. And this is the one uh that I'm gonna recommend. I certainly am. And uh, Kathy, all I could say is uh thank you for your time and coming on. Yeah. And wow, I'm blown away. Uh 100%.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00So this should be taught to kids.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_00This is the elephant in the room. And I believe in closing that if we can wrap our head around our brain and become more aware, I think a lot of the world's problems would go away.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. That would be great. Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I'm I'm gonna go on a limb and say I would love to do it again.
unknownOkay, okay.
SPEAKER_00This is too good. Thanks, Kathy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you bet. Thanks so much. All right, gang. There you have it. Jesse and I talking all things about managing your mind and playing better golf. If I can help you in any way, if this is something that resonates with you, this is what I do. I help people, I coach them one on one. And of course, I have courses and self paced things that you can go through. So make sure you reach out to me at Kathy at KathyHartwood.com or my website, KathyHartwood.com. All right, my friends, have a beautiful week, and I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Bye.